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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3 ------------------------------------------------x
4 CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
Plaintiff,
5
-against
HON. JANET RENO, ATTORNEY
7 GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES,
Defendant.
8 ------------------------------------------------x
9
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
10 100 Church Street
New York, New York 10007
11
May 3, 2000
12 10:20 a.m.

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16 EXAMINATION BEFORE TRIAL OF THE
17 DEFENDANT BY ROBERT G. BROUILLET.

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22 BETSY CONDIOTTI & ASSOCIATES
23 P.O. Box 2232
24 Neptune, New Jersey 07754
25 (732) 774-2902

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 MICHAEL R. BRESSLER, ESQ.
36 West 44th Street
3 New York, New York 10036
BY: MICHAEL R. BRESSLER , ESQ.
4 Attorney for the Plaintiff
5 MARY JO WHITE, ESQ.
United States Attorney
6 Southern District of New York
100 Church Street
7 New York, New York 10007
BY: ERIC B. FISHER, ESQ.
8 Attorneys for the Defendant
9 ALSO PRESENT:
10 MICHAEL LEVENTHAL

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1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS NAME PAGE NO.
3 ROBERT G. BROUILLET

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5 Direct Examination by Mr. Bressler 5

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7 E X H I B I T S
8 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE NO.

9 P-1 Postal receipt and two-page 23
letter dated 6/8/95
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P-2 Postal receipt and four-page 32
11 letter dated 6/13/96
12 P-3 Postal receipt and two-page 33
memorandum dated 6/10/96 and
13 three pages attached
14 P-4 Position description form for 42
supervisory applications clerk
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1 STIPULATIONS
2 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
3 between the attorneys for the respective parties
4 herein that the sealing, filing and certification of
5 the within Examination Before Trial be waived; that
6 all objections, except as to form, are reserved to
7 the time of trial;
8 That the transcript may by signed before any
9 Notary Public with the same force and effect as if
10 signed before a Clerk or Judge of the Court;
11 That this Examination Before Trial may be
12 utilized for all purposes as provided by the CPLR;
13 That all rights provided to all parties by the
14 CPLR shall not be deemed waived and the appropriate
15 sections of the CPLR shall be controlling with
16 respect thereto.

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1 ROBERT G. B R O U I L L E T,
2 26 Federal Plaza, Room 4128, New York, New
3 York, called as a witness, having been first
4 duly sworn according to law, testifies as
5 follows:

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7

8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRESSLER:

9
10 Q Good morning, Mr. Brouillet.
11 A Good morning.
12 Q My name is Michael Bressler. I represent
13 Ms. Carol Leventhal, the Plaintiff, against the
14 Defendants, Janet Reno and the U.S. Department of
15 Justice.
16 Have you ever had a deposition before?
17 A No, I haven't.
18 Q I'm going to ask you questions. You have
19 to give verbal answers, because gestures can't be
20 picked up by the reporter. So articulate your
21 answer. If you don't understand a question, please
22 let me know and I will attempt to rephrase it, okay?
23 A Okay.
24 Q In the past twenty-four hours, have you
25 taken any drugs, medication, alcohol or anything else

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1 that would make you unable to correctly answer
2 questions today?
3 A No, I haven't.
4 Q Have you reviewed any documents, papers
5 and so forth before coming in today for the purpose
6 of this deposition?
7 A Yes, I have.
8 Q What have you reviewed?
9 A Some of the file cases related to this, myself
10 and Mr. Fisher.
11 Q Do you have copies of those documents?
12 MR. FISHER: For the record, the
13 documents were documents that I showed Mr.
14 Brouillet and they were documents that were
15 produced to us by Plaintiff's counsel.
16 MR. BRESSLER: Okay.
17 Q Are you employed?
18 A Yes, I am.
19 Q By whom are you employed?
20 A Immigration & Naturalization Service.
21 Q For how long have you been employed by
22 INS?
23 A Since February of 1991.
24 Q What is your current job title?
25 A Personnel staffing specialist.

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1 Q Was that the title you had in 1995 and
2 1996?
3 A No, it's not.
4 Q When did you become personnel staffing
5 specialist?
6 A Summer of '97.
7 Q What are your duties and responsibilities
8 as personnel staffing specialist?
9 A I handle the staffing and recruitment duties
10 for assigned positions within the New York district
11 of the INS.
12 Q Prior to the summer of 1997, what
13 position did you hold?
14 A I was supervisory personnel management
15 specialist.

NOTE: THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.  ONE YEAR AFTER MS. LEVENTHAL WAS ILLEGALLY TERMINATED AND SHE BEGAN A FORMAL COMPLAINT, MR. BROUILETTE'S POSITION WAS CHANGED FROM SUPERVISORY PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT SPECIALIST TO PERSONNEL STAFFING SPECIALIST.  IN GENERAL TERMS AND TO THIS WRITER'S KNOWLEDGE, THIS IS A REDUCTION IN POSITION.

16 Q When did you become supervisory personnel
17 management specialist?
18 A When I joined INS in February of '91.
19 Q What were your duties as supervisory
20 personnel management specialist?
21 A I was in charge of personnel, all areas.
22 Q Can you be more specific about when you
23 say you are responsible for personnel, all areas?
24 A Staffing and recruiting, labor relations,
25 employee relations, training, security, personnel

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1 processing.
2 Q Now, is that for the New York district
3 office?
4 A New York district office.
5 Q Any other offices?
6 A Just the New York district office.

7 Q And supervisory personnel management
8 specialist was your title in 1995 and 1996?
9 A Yes.

10 Q And your duties were as you just

11 specified in 1995 and 1996?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, basically, most of my questions will
14 deal with the period of 1995 and 1996.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Unless otherwise specified. Now, in
17 general, can you briefly describe how you would come
18 to hire a person in INS who didn't take a civil
19 service exam?
20 A Simply put, if someone is seeking employment
21 with us through the office of personnel management,
22 well, then they would apply through OPM, which would
23 recruit for us.
24 Q What is OPM?
25 A The United States office of personnel

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1 management.
2 Q Can you briefly describe the process,
3 basically, your relationship with OPM?
4 A If we choose to fill a position with outside
5 candidates, if we want to fill a position that would
6 be open to the general public, under the law, we
7 would go through OPM. They would announce the job
8 for us. Then they would, you know, receive the
9 applications, determine their qualifications, rate
10 and rank them and place them on a certificate of
11 eligibles and issue that to the requesting agency.
12 Q Now, do you know how OPM rates and ranks
13 candidates?
14 A No, I don't.
15 Q For instance, in a typical case or a
16 typical placement, they give you a list of
17 candidates?
18 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
19 A Yes, it would be a certificate of eligibles
20 that they would issue.
21 Q Approximately how many people would be on
22 the list?
23 A Depending on the number of vacancies.
24 Q Are you saying that there is a list of
25 eligibles for positions in general or is it a

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1 additional point?
2 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
3 A It's not added, no.
4 Q Do you know if you have an Affirmative Action
5 program?
6 A Yes, we do.
7 Q Can you describe the Affirmative Action
8 program or your understanding of it?
9 A The Affirmative Action plan states mainly that
10 all personnel actions will be based upon merit
11 reasons only without, you know, race, marriage, sex,
12 ethnicity entering into the picture. Everything is
13 decided on merit factors alone.
14 MR. BRESSLER: Can you read that back.
15 (The record is read back.)
16 Q Well, what then is the Affirmative Action
17 program, as you know?
18 A Okay, the Affirmative Action plan also
19 stipulates that efforts should be made to, you know,
20 make an outreach effort to all groups so that the
21 Federal government will be well representative of all
22 groups that make up the country.
23 Q Now, you are talking about making an
24 effort to recruit all groups?
25 A All groups, yes.

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1 Q But is INS or your office involved in
2 recruitment?
3 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.

NOTE: NOTICE HOW THE US ATTORNEY IS GETTING MR. BROUILETTE USED TO HEARING THE CODE WARNING "OBJECTION TO FORM."  IN THIS CASE HE IS WARY ABOUT THE DEPOSER GETTING INVOLVED WITH QUESTIONS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.  RACIAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MS. LEVENTHAL IS MENTIONED IN HER COMPLAINT.  THE USDOJ IS PETRIFIED OF THIS AREA OF QUESTIONING.

4 A Not directly, because we have a separate EEO
5 office that is responsible for that.
6 Q Is it OPM or INS that recruits
7 candidates?
8 A We do both, because OPM will do it if we go
9 through OPM, but each agency, as you probably know,
10 can also fill positions internally with their own
11 vacancy announcements.
12 Q Now, are you given by either OPM or any
13 other agency any targets for hiring in terms of race
14 or numbers?
15 A From OPM?
16 Q From OPM or any agency.
17 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
18 A I think that there's statistics that show, you
19 know, the makeup of the agencies as part of the EEO
20 law to see that we reach all groups in our
21 recruitment drives.
22 Q Overall, you basically review the
23 statistics of the agency to see if the agency is
24 representative of the country?
25 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form. Who

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1 is "you" in the question?

NOTE: AGAIN, "OBJECTION TO FORM" IS USED WHEN THE POSSIBILITY OF QUOTAS AND RACIAL INFORMATION IS BROUGHT UP.

2 MR. BRESSLER: Well, meaning him
3 personally.
4 A Not me, no.
5 Q Does INS, to your knowledge, review the
6 hiring to see if it's met certain targets on racial
7 hiring?
8 A I believe they do at a higher level.

NOTE: "RACIAL TARGETS" ARE A CODE WORD FOR RACIAL QUOTAS AND RACE BASED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

9 Q Does anyone from a higher-level tell you,
10 for example, we need to hire more blacks or more
11 Asians, et cetera?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you ever get a report of the
14 statistics of hiring, like, on a periodic basis?
15 MR. FISHER: You meaning Mr. Brouillet?
16 MR. BRESSLER: His agency.
17 Q I'm saying, how do you insure that you
18 met the targets?
19 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form. There
20 hasn't been any testimony that there are
21 targets.

NOTE: ON THE CONTRARY.  IN #5-8, MR. BROUILETTE HAS JUST STATED THAT HE BELIEVES IT IS DONE ON A HIGHER LEVEL.

22 Q Your testimony is that you keep
23 statistics on the hiring; and that's designed for
24 what purpose?
25 A It's not done in my office.

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1 Q Do you know what office does this?
2 A EEO, as far as I know.
3 Q Would you know what statistics EEO keeps
4 in this area?
5 A Male, female, I think, race, ethnicity.
6 Q If you personally would like to obtain
7 statistics for a given section of your office, would
8 you be able to obtain that from the computer?
9 A No, we don't have access to that on computer.
10 Q Does the EEO office have those
11 statistics?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Now, let me shift gears a little. Were
14 you involved in the hiring of Ms. Caryl Leventhal?
15 A Somewhat, yes.
16 Q Can you briefly describe your
17 involvement.
18 A If I recall, we requested an OPM certificate
19 of eligibles and her name was one of the candidates
20 on there and she was subsequently selected.
21 Q Do you know how many individuals are on
22 the list of eligibles?
23 A No.
24 Q Do you have an approximation?
25 A No, I can't -- I don't even know the number of

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1 vacancies at the time. It could have been anywhere
2 from four to twelve.
3 Q Of the eligibles, do you know, if you
4 remember, the race of any of the eligibles, the
5 racial makeup?
6 A No, I don't recall.
7 Q Did OPM rank the eligibles?
8 A Yes, they were in rank order, by score order.
9 Q Do you know what Ms. Leventhal's rank
10 was?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q Do you know what criteria was used to
13 rank the eligibles?
14 A I don't even recall if there was a test or not
15 involved with that. So then OPM would have rated and
16 ranked the candidates.
17 Q Do you know if Ms. Leventhal was
18 interviewed for this position?
19 A I recall, yes, she was interviewed.
20 Q Do you know by whom?
21 A No, I don't.
22 Q Do you know when she was interviewed?
23 A Sometime in 1995.
24 Q Who was the person who made the final

25 determination on whether Ms. Leventhal should be

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1 A I would have reviewed the application to make
2 sure all necessary documents were there; and then I
3 would have reviewed the document from the
4 interviewing official that they were, in fact,
5 selecting this person.
6 Q To your knowledge, did race have any role
7 whatsoever in selecting the person or in determining
8 who would get the position that Ms. Leventhal was
9 applying for?
10 A To my knowledge, no.
11 Q In May of 1995, did you inform Ms.
12 Leventhal she was hired as a supervisory applications
13 clerk?
14 MR. FISHER: What's the date?
15 MR. BRESSLER: I said in May 1995.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did you ask her for a starting date in
18 May of 1995?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Do you recall what she told you?
21 A Specifically, no.
22 Q Well, do you recall telling her the date
23 she selected was good, because it starts a new pay
24 period?
25 A I don't remember those exact words.

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1 Q Well, did there come a time after you
2 told her she was selected that she could not start
3 her employment?
4 A Yes, I recall that at that time.
5 Q What was the reason that you told her
6 this?
7 A The specific reason that we had to delay her
8 start day, I don't recall. I don't recall the
9 reasons.
10 Q You don't recall at all why it was
11 delayed?
12 A Specifically, no, I don't recall.
13 Q Could it have been to choose someone else
14 for the position?
15 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
16 A I don't understand the question.
17 Q Could the delay of hiring been as a
18 result of you seeking someone else for that position?
19 A I don't think so.
20 Q Do you know when Ms. Leventhal started,
21 actually started in her position, started working?
22 A It was in October of '95.
23 Q Did you ever talk to Mr. Michael
24 Leventhal between May of 1995 and October of 1995?
25 A I don't recall.  

NOTE: MICHAEL LEVENTHAL RECALLS.  THE ANSWER IS YES.

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1 Q Did you ever speak with Ms. Leventhal
2 between May 1995 and October 1995?
3 A I don't recall, but I must have.

NOTE: HE DID ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS AND MR. LEVENTHAL LISTENED IN TO TWO OF THEM.

4 Q Do you recall anything about any
5 conversations you may have had with Ms. Leventhal
6 between May 1995 and October 1995?
7 A What I do recall was trying to tell her that
8 we had to delay her starting work, that she would be
9 starting work, but there was going to be a delay.
10 Q Is it common that there are these kind of
11 delays?
12 A They do happen on occasion, yes.
13 Q And you don't know specifically why there
14 was a delay in her case?
15 A I don't know why in her case.
16 Q Well, in general, do you know why there
17 would be a delay?
18 A In general, I do know some of the delays, yes.
19 Q What reasons are there for a possible
20 delay?
21 A It could be a number of reasons, a simple
22 mistake, a sudden hiring freeze, a hold off for a
23 number of pay periods for more monies to become
24 available. There could have been an error made in
25 the clearance process, fingerprint check, drug

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1 clear record, when did you review those
2 letters?
3 THE WITNESS: After I was contacted by
4 Mr. Fisher.
5 Q When were you contacted by Mr. Fisher?
6 A Two weeks ago.
7 Q I'm going to show you what I'm going to
8 mark as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1.
9 (A postal receipt and two-page letter
10 dated June 8, 1995, is marked as Plaintiff's
11 Exhibit 1 for identification, as of this
12 date.)
13 Q Do you recall receiving this letter?

NOTE: THIS WAS A LETTER OF COMPLAINT ABOUT HAVING HER JOB OFFER RESCINDED.  IT WAS SENT CERTIFIED MAIL TO MR. BROUILETTE.

14 A Honestly, I don't recall.
15 Q Do you recall if you took any action in
16 response to receipt of this letter?
17 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
18 A I don't recall.

NOTE: OFCOURSE HE "DOESN'T REMEMBER."  MR. BROUILETTES ACTIONS LEFT THE USDOJ OPEN TO A LAWSUIT BASED ON NEGLIGENCE AND DISCRIMINATION.

19 Q Well, between May and October, did you
20 have any conversations with Mr. Berriman regarding
21 Ms. Leventhal's hiring?
22 A I don't recall.

NOTE: YOU'LL FIND MR. BROUILETTE CONSTANTLY FALLS BACK ON LAWYER TRAINED EVASIONS SUCH AS "I DON'T RECALL."  THE US ATTORNEY TRAINED HIM WELL.  REMEMBER, IN LAWYER SPEAK, THIS IS NOT A LIE.  BUT TO EVERYONE ELSE, A LIE IS A LIE.

23 Q You could have had conversations?
24 A I could have.
25 Q Well, was there any specific person who

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1 said we need to place a hold on the hiring of Ms.
2 Leventhal?
3 A Say that again.
4 Q Do you recall who said we must place a
5 hold on the hiring of Ms. Leventhal?
6 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
7 A No, I don't recall.
8 Q Do you know if it was someone in INS or
9 someone who said hold off on this hiring or was it
10 someone from OPM?
11 A I don't recall, but in line with your
12 question, it could have been someone with OPM if they
13 were to say we haven't completed a background
14 investigation as required.
15 Q But you have no specific knowledge about
16 why there was a hold?
17 A No, I can't recall.
18 Q Do you recall when you were told to put a
19 hold on Ms. Leventhal's hiring?
20 A Specifically, no, I don't recall.
-1 Q Do you recall speaking with Mr. Leventhal
22 and informing him that Ms. Leventhal couldn't begin
23 because others had points over her?
24 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
25 A I don't recall.  

NOTE: BY USING "OBJECTION TO FORM," THE US ATTORNEY IS ATTEMPTING TO PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE FROM BECOMING COMPLICITUS.

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1 Q Well, could the issue of points be the
2 reason for the hold in Ms. Leventhal's case?
3 A Possibly because OPM, you know, rates and
4 ranks the candidates in score order on the list. So
5 there may have been other people with a higher score
6 higher up on the list than Ms. Leventhal.
7 Q If that was the case, then why would you
8 offer a position to Ms. Leventhal?
9 A As I said, some of the errors that could have
10 been made at the time, you know, there may have been
11 two vacancies or three vacancies, but if there was a
12 change of only one vacancy, then that one vacancy
13 would have had to go with the top available three.
14 She may have been further down the list
15 and maybe getting the second vacancy. Like I said, I
16 don't recall the specific circumstances.
17 Q When you say the vacancies, you are
18 talking about all the total vacancies in the New York
19 district office?
20 A No, vacancies for the position in question,
21 supervisory applications clerk. This certificate of
22 eligibles was for the position of supervisory
23 applications clerk.
24 Q What do you mean by vacancies in this
25 context?

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1 A At that time, the adjudications branch might
2 feel that they have three vacancies, which means we
3 can make three selections from this one certificate
4 of eligibles. If suddenly the number of vacancies
5 change, for whatever reasons, then the selections we
6 would make then would be in accordance with the
7 number of vacancies, one selection or two selections
8 or maybe even four selections if additional vacancies
9 open up.
10 Q Well, when you say if there was an issue
11 of points, does race or ethnicity have any role in
12 the point value?
13 A No role whatsoever.
14 Q Are you familiar with a person named
15 Steven Smith?
16 A It rings a bell, yes.
17 Q Do you know a Steven Smith who is an INS
18 security officer in Vermont?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall if Mr. Smith conducted an
21 investigation of Ms. Leventhal in the summer of 1995?
22 A He would have been the agency's processor of
23 her paperwork prior to it going to OPM.
24 Q Do you know what his job is in doing
25 that?

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1 A Well, as security officer for the region, his
2 job is to, you know, process requests for security
3 clearances for employees and candidates for
4 employment.
5 Q Well, can you describe the process of
6 when you would use someone like Mr. Smith or a
7 security officer?
8 A For any new employee that we bring on board,
9 they have to have a security clearance.
10 Q How does a security check work?
11 A Well, when we hire a new employee, there are
12 certain requirements that have to be met, as far as a
13 background investigation goes; and that involves
14 taking fingerprints so the FBI can do a fingerprint
15 check, name, date of birth check. Drug testing is
16 required.
17 There is the credit history that is
18 checked and then certain background investigation
19 forms have to be completed on all candidates. We
20 review the paperwork to make sure that everything is
21 completed; and then we send that package up to the
22 regional office in Vermont. They do further
23 processing before they forward the package on to OPM,
24 which will do the investigation.
25 Q Is this all done before a candidate is

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1 hired?
2 A It's all done before a candidate enters on
3 duty.

NOTE: THIS WAS DONE PRIOR TO MS. LEVENTHAL BEING MADE A JOB OFFER.  AND YET, IN THE SUMMER OF 1995 SHE WAS SUBJECTED TO A SECOND PUNITIVE INVESTIGATION TO MALIGN HER REPUTATION AND KEEP HER OUT.  DURING THIS INVESTIGATION, SHE WAS FORCED TO SIGN A RELEASE GIVING STEVEN SMITH ACCESS TO HER IRS RECORDS.  SHE WAS TOLD THAT FAILURE TO COMPLY WOULD RESULT IN HER BEING DENIED EVER WORKING FOR USDOJ/INS.  THIS IS NOT DENIED BY THE US ATTORNEY.

4 Q Am I correct to say you pick a candidate,
5 then you go through this check and then they start
6 work?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you inform the candidate who has been
9 picked before the check is completed?
10 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
11 A State that again.
12 Q I'm just trying to understand what you
13 said. Are you saying you tell the person to be hired
14 that they are hired, but before they begin their
15 work, you go through the whole security check?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And this was done in the case of Ms.
18 Leventhal, to your knowledge?
19 A I assume it was, yes.
20 Q Do you recall anything about the results
21 of that investigation in Ms. Leventhal's case?
22 A Not in this particular case, but I would have
23 been notified if she had her clearances or not before
24 a formal job offer could be made.
25 Q Now, do you know if there was a second

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1 investigation of Ms. Leventhal in 1995?
2 A I don't recall. I don't know.
3 Q Is it common for applicants, or I should
4 say someone who is picked for a job, that they are
5 required to sign a release for IRS income tax
6 information?
7 A I don't know, to answer that specifically.

NOTE: OF COURSE HE DOES.  IT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF THE ORDINARY AND NOT DONE AFTER A SECURITY CLEARANCE IS APPROVED.

8 Q Have you ever, in your experiences, asked
9 an applicant to sign a release for the IRS?
10 A For the IRS, no.

NOTE:  CORRECT! IT WAS DONE BY MR. SMITH TO BE PUNITIVE.

11 Q Do you know if this was done for Ms.
12 Leventhal?
13 A I can't answer that. I don't know.
14 Q If it was done for Ms. Leventhal, do you
15 know why it would be?
16 A I have no idea.
17 Q How common would you say, I guess on a
18 percentage basis, for a starting date to be
19 rescinded?
20 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.

NOTE: THE US ATTORNEY IS SENDING A WARNING TO MR. BROUILETTE.

21 A I simply do know that it does happen on
22 occasion. It does happen.
23 Q Well, is it, maybe, twenty-five percent,
24 ten percent, fifty percent?
25 A It's low. I wouldn't want to go beyond that.

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1 Q And you have no idea why her starting
2 date was rescinded?
3 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
4 A As I stated, there could have been a number of
5 reasons. I don't recall the specific reason in this
6 particular case.
7 Q In the year 1995, do you know
8 approximately how many people's starting dates were
9 rescinded?
10 A I have no idea.
11 Q When there is a delay of starting date,
12 do you know how long a period it is before a person
13 starts, in the usual case?

NOTE: ANOTHER WARNING BY THE US ATTORNEY TO MR. BROUILETTE.

14 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
15 A It could be a number of weeks or three months,
16 four months.
17 Q Have you ever had any experience of
18 someone starting five months after their initial
19 starting date was given?
20 A I can't answer that for sure.
21 MR. FISHER: Is that aside from Ms.
22 Leventhal?
23 MR. BRESSLER: Yes, aside from Ms.
24 Leventhal.
25 A It's possible.  

NOTE: DURING THE TRIAL, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE THE US ATTORNEY PRODUCE THESE STATISTICS.

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1 Q But in most cases, it's a few weeks; is
2 that your testimony?
3 A I would think under most circumstances.
4 Q Now, shifting to the period between, say,
5 June 1996 and August 15th of 1996, did you speak with
6 anyone at INS about Ms. Leventhal?
7 A What are those dates again?
8 Q June 1996 and August 15th of 1996.
9 A This is after she was already on board?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q Did you have any involvement with Ms.
13 Leventhal's termination from INS?
14 A No direct involvement.
15 Q What involvement did you have in Ms.
16 Leventhal's termination?
17 A As a supervisory personnel management
18 specialist, to supervise a labor relations specialist
19 to answer this case, I would have taken a quick look
20 at the paperwork before passing it on.
21 Q Do you recall looking at the paperwork
22 for Ms. Leventhal?
23 A No, I don't recall.
24 Q Do you recall receiving any letters from
25 Mr. or Ms. Leventhal in the period of June 1996 to

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1 August 15th, 1996?
2 A In that time, no, I don't recall.
3 Q I'm going to show you what we will mark
4 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.
5 (A postal receipt and a four-page letter
6 dated June 13, 1996, is marked as Plaintiff's
7 Exhibit 2 for identification, as of this
8 date.)

NOTE: THIS IS A LETTER SENT CERTIFIED MAIL FROM CARYL LEVENTHAL TO MR. BROUILETTE.  IN THIS CORRESPONDENCE, SHE COMPLAINS ABOUT HER TREATMENT AND SUPPLIES INFORMATION ABOUT BEING CRITICALLY ILL.  SHE TELLS MR. BROUILETTE THAT (CONTRARY TO DOCTOR'S ORDERS), SHE WILL BE COMING IN TO SPEAK WITH HIM ON JUNE 24, 1996.

9 Q Do you recall receiving this letter?
10 A I don't recall receiving this letter.
11 Q Do you recall, sometime after receipt of
12 this letter, a visit to your office by Ms. Leventhal?
13 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
14 A I don't really recall.

NOTE: NOT TO BE FLIPPANT, BUT CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?  A CRITICALLY ILL WOMAN WRITES MR. BROUILETTE CERTIFIED MAIL ABOUT A SERIOUS MATTER OF MANAGEMENT ABUSE.  OBVIOUSLY SICK WITH AN ACUTE EXACERBATION OF MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS, SHE ARRIVES AND PERSONALLY HANDS HIM MEDICAL INFORMATION FOR HER PERSONNEL FILE.  SHE PLEADS WITH HIM FOR HELP AND ASKS FOR A TRANSFER WHEN SHE RETURNS.  AND MR. BROUILETTE (WHO SUPPLIES NO HELP OR INFORMATION WHATEVER) CLAIMS NOT TO REMEMBER. 

15 Q Do you recall any meeting with Ms.
16 Leventhal in June of 1996, anything at all about
17 that?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q Isn't it unusual to meet a relatively
20 low-level employee at your office?
21 A Not really, no.
22 Q Do employees generally come to you with
23 employment-related issues?
24. A On occasion they have and I could either help
25 them or direct them to someone else.

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1 Q Do you recall Ms. Leventhal coming to you
2 and asking for a transfer out of the department she
3 was in?
4 A Her in particular, I don't recall.
5 Q Do you recall receiving any paperwork
6 regarding Ms. Leventhal's termination in June of
7 1996?
8 A Specifically, I don't recall.
9 Q Do you recall Ms. Leventhal ever handing
10 you documents personally in 1996, in June 1996?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q I'm going to show you what I'm going to
13 mark as Exhibit 3.
14 (A postal receipt and a two-page
15 memorandum and three pages attached is marked
16 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 for identification,
17 as of this date.)
18 (A short recess is taken.)
19 Q Do you recall receiving Exhibit 3?
20 A I don't recall this.

NOTE: EVERY DOCUMENT SENT TO USDOJ/INS WAS SENT CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED.

21 Q Did you have any discussions with anyone
22 about Ms. Leventhal's termination from INS?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Do you recall talking to Brenda Grant at
25 all about Ms. Leventhal?

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1 requested a certificate of eligibles from OPM for a
2 position, there may have been more than one vacancy.
3 Q So if I got you correct, there may have
4 been a few vacancies for supervisory applications
5 clerk. Ms. Leventhal was going to fill one of those
6 slots and there may have been, like, three
7 supervisory applications clerks GS-6 available?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You try to fill the three slots from the
10 list you have?
11 A From the one list, yes.
12 Q It's like a waiting line in a bank, you
13 go to a different window?
14 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
15 MR. BRESSLER: Okay, sorry.
16 Q Do you recall telling Ms. Leventhal, when
17 she spoke with you about her termination, that I
18 can't change things in the middle?

NOTE: THAT WAS MR. BROUILETTE'S RESPONSE TO CARYL LEVENTHAL'S PERSON PLEA FOR HELP WHEN SHE SAW HIM ON JUNE 24, 1996.

19 A Are you asking me if I said that?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q I guess you don't recall meeting Ms.
23 Leventhal, but do you recall discussing Ms.
24 Leventhal's case with anyone at all in the summer of
25 1996?

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1 A I don't recall.
2 Q Are you familiar at all with the policies
3 of INS regarding sick time and sick leave?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Can you briefly say what the policy is?
6 If someone is sick, how they can take off? What's
7 the procedure?
8 A All employees are entitled to four hours of
9 sick leave for every pay period and you accumulate
10 that indefinitely during your career in the
11 government; and you are entitled to use it, provided
12 you are ill and it's necessary for you to request
13 sick leave and you make that request through your
14 supervisor.
15 I think if it's over more than three
16 days, well, then, you have to bring in medical
17 documentation.
18 Q Can an employee be terminated if they
19 provide medical confirmation of their sickness?
20 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.

NOTE: A WARNING TO MR. BROUILETTE FROM THE US ATTORNEY.

21 MR. BRESSLER: I will rephrase it.
22 Q Are you familiar with the term AWOL?
23 A Yes, I'm familiar with it.
24 Q Do you know what it means in the context

25 of INS personnel?

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1 A Yes.
2 Q What does it mean?
3 A You are absent without approved leave from
4 your supervisor.
5 Q Do you know what is required to get leave
6 from your supervisor?
7 A You have to request it.
8 Q Can a request be made by phone?
9 A Under certain circumstances, if it's an
10 emergency and you can't report for work that day,
11 then, of course, by all means, you have to call in a
12 request leave, sick leave or annual leave.
13 Q Is it necessary for an employee, him or
14 herself, to call or is it possible that their spouse
15 can call on their behalf, in your understanding?
16 A The general rule is that the employee
17 themselves are supposed to call in.
18 Q Would you think if they are too sick to
19 do so themselves, they could have someone do so on
20 their behalf?
21 A I would think so.

NOTE: THAN WHY DID BOTH BRENDA GRANT AND AGATHA STEWART BOTH REFUSE TO SPEAK WITH CARYL LEVENTHAL'S HUSBAND WHEN SHE WAS CRITICALLY ILL.

22 Q Now, do you know if Ms. Leventhal was
23 marked AWOL between June and August of 1996?
24 A I have no idea.
25 Q Do you recall discussing her being AWOL

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1 at least ninety days. Then at that point, then you
2 will get your appraisal.
3 Q So it won't be for a year, but it would
4 be for the period you have worked?
5 A Right, if it's less than a year.
6 Q Do you know if Ms. Leventhal had an
7 annual review?
8 A I have no idea.
9 Q Is it common to terminate someone prior
10 to giving them a review?
11 A That could happen, yes.
12 Q In a normal case, does termination occur
13 after, say, a negative evaluation?
14 A A termination can happen at any time.
15 Q But in the normal course of business, is
16 it common to wait until someone has a review before
17 you terminate them?
18 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
19 A I don't know if one thing has a bearing to do
20 with the other.

NOTE: IT HAS A LOT OF BEARING.  MS. LEVENTHAL WAS TERMINATED WHILE CONFIRMED CRITICALLY ILL.  SHE WAS TERMINATED WITHOUT WARNING AND WAS NOT GIVEN HER FINAL REVIEW.

21 Q Do you know what the written job
22 specifications were for a supervisory applications
23 clerk?
24 A Are you referring to the performance work
25 plan?

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1 MR. BRESSLER: Let me have this marked as
2 Plaintiff's Exhibit 4.
3 (A position description form for
4 supervisory applications clerk is marked as
5 Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 for identification, as
6 of this date.)
7 Q Can you describe what Exhibit 4 is?
8 A This is a position description for the
9 position of supervisory application clerks. All
10 positions in the Federal government have position
11 descriptions describing your major duties and
12 responsibilities.
13 Q From your review of Exhibit 4, in your
14 opinion, is this an accurate description of the
15 supervisory applications clerk position?
16 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
17 A To answer that -- I couldn't answer that. You
18 would have to refer to the signatures of the position
19 description attesting to the accuracy of the form.
20 Q From reviewing the signatures and
21 reviewing the document, is it your opinion that this
22 is an accurate position description?
23 MR. FISHER: Is the question, is this an
24 accurate copy of the position description or
25 does the position description form conform to

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1 something to do with citizenship.
2 Q In your review of Exhibit 4 and your
3 knowledge, does supervisory applications clerks'
4 duties include heavy lifting or any physical
5 activity?
6 A That I don't know.

NOTE: MR. BROUILETTE CLAIMS NOT TO KNOW AFTER JUST BEING HANDED THE JOB SPECS.  THEY DO NOT INCLUDE ANY MENTION OF PHYSICAL REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS WHITE COLLAR POSITION.

7 Q In your review of Exhibit 4, do you see
8 physical activity or heavy lifting as a job duty or
9 function?
10 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form. The
11 document speaks for itself, but you can go
12 ahead and review it and see if you see heavy
13 lifting listed anywhere in there.

14 A Well, it does state in there, other
15 significant facts, work of the incumbent and the
16 incumbent's subordinate employees are subject to
17 sudden and radical adjustments.

NOTE: THIS IS STANDARD LEGAL JARGON.  IT USUALLY APPLIES TO CRISIS SITUATIONS SUCH AS USING A FIRE EXTINGUISHER DURING AN EMERGENCY.

18 Q Well, to your knowledge, does INS have a
19 policy or policies regarding accommodating people
20 with disabilities?
21 A All government agencies have that policy.

NOTE: THEN WHY DID BRENDA GRANT AND AGATHA STEWART FAIL TO SUPPLY CARYL LEVENTHAL WITH REASONABLE OR EVEN GOOD FAITH ACCOMMODATIONS RELATIVE TO PERFORMING HEAVY LIFTING AND CLIMBING?  SHE DID HAVE MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS.

22 Q Can you describe that policy, in general?
23 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form. Mr.
24 Brouillet could describe the policy to his
25 knowledge, but it's not clear that he has

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1 A I don't know if they would have that or not.
2 Q Well, to your knowledge, do you know if
3 any other office would have that information?
4 A Any other office?
5 Q Any other branch or division or office.
6 A Yes, I think they would, yes.
7 Q What office would have that?
8 A That would probably be at the EEO office in
9 Vermont.
10 MR. FISHER: What information are you
11 talking about?
12 MR. BRESSLER: The racial or ethnic
13 background of the supervisory applications
14 clerk.
15 MR. FISHER: The question is racial or
16 ethnic information compiled for that position
17 in section 245, you want to find out if data
18 is compiled in a certain way or available?
19 I'm not sure exactly what information you
20 are looking for.
21 MR. BRESSLER: Let me ask this.
22 Q In general, is racial and ethnic
23 information kept by the EEO office?
24 A I believe so, yes.

NOTE:  BINGO! IN CARYL LEVENTHAL'S REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF PAPERWORK, THE US ATTORNEY REFUSED ON THE GROUNDS THAT THIS RACIAL DEMOGRAPHIC INFORMATION IS UNAVAILABLE.

25 Q Would that office, to your knowledge, and

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1 I know you don't work there, have specific
2 information about the ethnic or racial composition of
3 a particular department?
4 A They might have that.

NOTE: THEY DO.  IT IS A SIMPLE MATTER OF EXTRACTING RACIAL INFORMATION FOR A SPECIFIC DEPARTMENT FROM THEIR DATABASE.  IT IS A STANDARD DATABASE QUERY OPERATION THAT TAKES NO MORE THAN TWO OR THREE MINUTES.

5 Q When someone gets employed by INS, do
6 they provide to whoever is hiring them their racial
7 or ethnic background information?
8 A They are asked that, but it's on a voluntary
9 basis.
10 Q And that information is kept by the INS
11 EEO office?
12 A In the region, in Vermont.
13 Q What makes up this region or New York's
14 region? What region is the New York district office
15 in?
16 A Eastern region.
17 Q What states are included in that?
18 A Well, as far as what states are included?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Probably the whole eastern section of the
21 United States from Chicago and from Texas on over.
22 Q And where is the EEO office for New York
23 State?

NOTE:  AGAIN, NOT TO BE FLIPPANT, BUT DIDN'T NAZI GERMANY DO THIS IN ALL COUNTRIES THEY OCCUPIED? WASN'T THIS DISCREDITED AFTER THE NUREMBERG TRIALS?

24 A South Burlington, Vermont. That's the
25 regional office.

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1 Q So the EEO office in South Burlington,
2 Vermont would have the statistics we spoke about for
3 the New York district office?
4 A I believe they do.
5 MR. FISHER: To the extent that such
6 statistics are compiled?
7 MR. BRESSLER: Right.
8 MR. FISHER: I mean, the witness is
9 speculating as to what might be there. That's
10 all I'm clarifying.
11 Q Now, do you recall Ms. Leventhal ever
12 discussing with you that she has multiple sclerosis?
13 A I don't recall.

NOTE:  MR. BROUILETTE IS LUDICROUS.  HE WAS JUST SHOWN A LETTER FROM CARYL LEVENTHAL SENT CERTIFIED MAIL WHERE SHE STATES THAT SHE HAS MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS. 

14 Q Were you ever involved in trying to
15 accommodate an employee who had a disability?
16 A Any employee?
17 Q For example, if someone said I need a
18 ramp for a wheelchair, did you ever get involved in
19 that kind of decision to accommodate someone with a
20 disability?
21 A In one case on a small thing.
22 Q Can you describe what that was?
23 A He was hearing impaired and required a special
24 phone.

NOTE:  IF THE USDOJ/INS WOULD SUPPLY A SPECIAL TELEPHONE FOR SOMEONE THAT IS HEARING IMPAIRED, WHY DIDN'T THEY MAKE EVEN GOOD FAITH ACCOMMODATIONS FOR SOMEONE WITH MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS?

25 Q Do you know when that happened?

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1 supervisor is not satisfied with the employee's
2 performance or conduct, you know, and cites what
3 those issues are and requests termination within the
4 probationary period.
5 Q Is it common to give a probationary
6 employee a warning before termination?
7 A It depends on what the circumstances are.
8 Q Well, is there any regulation requiring
9 that a warning be given to an employee before they
10 are terminated?
11 A Well, OPM has regulation guidelines, and so
12 does our agency, on what the process is as far as
13 advising an employee of unsatisfactory performance,
14 but like I said, under the circumstances, for a
15 probationary employee, there may be little or no
16 warning, depending on what the circumstances are.

NOTE: MS. LEVENTHAL WAS HOME CONFIRMED GRAVELY ILL. 

17 Q Do you know of any employee who had a
18 critical illness which was confirmed by medical
19 documentation that was terminated?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Are most employees who are terminated
22 given warnings prior to their termination?
23 A For probationary employees?
24 Q Yes.

NOTE:  MR. BROUILETTE FINALLY SAYS SOMETHING TRUTHFUL.  MOST PROBATIONARY EMPLOYEES WHO ARE TERMINATED ARE GIVEN WARNINGS PRIOR THEIR TERMINATION.  WHY WASN'T THIS DONE FOR MS. LEVENTHAL WHO WAS HOME CRITICALLY ILL?

25 A Sometimes, sometimes not.

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1 Q Do you recall any instances where that
2 has occurred or hasn't occurred?
3 A For a probationary employee, conduct reasons,
4 they could be terminated on the spot.
5 Q When you say conduct reasons, you are
6 talking about very serious offenses?
7 A Very serious offenses.

NOTE: ACCORDING TO THE DEPOSITION TESTIMONY OF AGATHA STEWART (CARYL LEVENTHAL'S IMMEDIATE FIRST LINE SUPERVISOR, CARYL LEVENTHAL'S CONDUCT WAS EXEMPLARY.)

8 Q Other than those serious offenses to
9 which you speak, generally, they are given warnings
10 before they are terminated?
11 A They are counseled.
12 Q Do you know if Ms. Leventhal was given
13 any warnings prior to her termination?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q In general, is it possible for someone to
16 be marked AWOL if they show medical documentation
17 about why they are absent?
18 A It's possible.
19 Q Can you describe how that would be
20 possible?
21 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.

NOTE: THE US ATTORNEY IS GETTING VERY NERVOUS AND DESPERATELY ATTEMPTING TO SEND MR. BROUILETTE SIGNALS.

22 A It could be, you know, the preparation and
23 documentation of the medical certificate, unsigned,
24 undated, ineligible.
25 Q Do you have any knowledge about Ms.

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1 Leventhal being marked AWOL?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you have any knowledge about any
4 medical documents she has provided to INS?
5 A I have, you know, information that I have
6 reviewed in regard to this case.
7 MR. FISHER: When did you review the
8 information? Are you referring to stuff you
9 saw today?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, today, with you.
11 Q Do you recall in '95 or '96 reviewing
12 such documentation?
13 A That I don't recall, no.
14 Q When you said the Affirmative Action
15 policy is to recruit people, were you ever involved
16 in recruiting employees?

17 ` A Yes.
18 Q What role did you play in recruiting
19 employees?
20 A I was the supervisor personally in charge of
21 staffing and recruiting. I would target certain
22 areas for job fairs and target other areas to send
23 out vacancy announcements to.

NOTE: RACIAL TARGETING IS ADMITTED.  JOB OPENING INFORMATION IS DISTRIBUTED TO CERTAIN ETHNIC AREAS AND DENIED TO OTHERS.

24 Q Were you involved in that recruitment in
25 1995 and 1996, as you described?

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1 A Not to that same degree as I was earlier in
2 '91, '92, maybe, '93.
3 Q How would you determine what area to go
4 into?
5 A Depending on the position to be filled and how
6 hard it is to fill it, whether we are going to fill
7 it internally or externally.
8 Q If you determined you were going to fill
9 it externally, can you describe how you would
10 approach recruitments?
11 A The main avenue to fill a position externally
12 would be first and foremost going to OPM and ask them
13 for a certificate of eligibles; and then they, in
14 turn, would do a public job notice and open it to the
15 public for which then the public would apply.
16 Q Then where would your recruitments come
17 in?
18 A The recruitments would be to come in if OPM
19 had a standing register for certain positions. We
20 could go out to colleges and job fairs in attempting
21 to attract candidates to specific open announcements
22 that OPM might have.
23 Q Well, in your recruitments, were you
24 ever, in terms of Affirmative Action, did you ever
25 make efforts to recruit minority candidates?

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1 A We had certain individuals referred to as
2 special emphasis program managers. We had certain
3 areas that they would try to target schools and
4 neighborhoods.

NOTE:  BINGO! RECRUITERS CALLED "SPECIAL EMPHASIS PROGRAM MANAGERS" WOULD TARGET RACE SPECIFIC AREAS TO GET POSITIONS FILLED ON A RACIAL BASIS.  THE UNITED NATIONS, THE NUREMBERG TRIALS AND INTERNATIONAL LAW FORBIDS THIS.

5 Q Were you involved in that?
6 A The only involvement I would have is if I
7 received notification that someone was having a job
8 fair, I would ask if one of the special emphasis
9 program managers could attend that.
10 Q Are you aware that Ms. Leventhal wrote
11 letters to first lady Hilary Rodham Clinton and
12 Senator Alphonse D'Amato after she did not start her
13 position in 1995?
14 A I'm aware of it now. I may have seen a
15 document provided to me where that may have had that
16 down there. I might be mistaken about that.
17 Q Well, did anyone outside the agency
18 notify you about these letters?
19 A I don't recall.
20 Q Do you recall anyone outside or inside
21 the agency that pressured you to hire or have Ms.
22 Leventhal start?
23 A Pressure?
24 Q Yes, like, push or saying let's get her
25 started.

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1 A I don't recall anything like that.
2 Q Do you recall anyone calling you and
3 telling you to speed up this process, let's get her
4 hired?
5 A I don't recall anything like that.
6 Q Well, do you recall any Affirmative
7 Action being part of the hiring process for the
8 supervisory applications clerk for section 245?
9 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
10 A In this particular case, we went through OPM
11 and they recruited for us.
12 Q Do you know if they used Affirmative
13 Action in seeking these candidates?
14 MR. FISHER: Objection as to form.
15 A Their specifics, I don't know.
16 MR. BRESSLER: I have nothing further.
17 Thank you.
18 (Time noted is 12:15 p.m.)

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21

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